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Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:52 pm**

From an email: --------------- (Author unknown) For good and ill, the Iraqi prisoner abuse mess will remain an issue. On the one hand, right thinking Americans will abhor the stupidity of the actions while on the other hand, political glee will take control and fashion this minor event into some modern day My Lai massacre. I heard some Arabs and Muslims are asking for an apology. I humbly offer mine here: I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.). I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11. I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs. I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships. I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth. I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media. I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and highjacked the Palestinian "cause". I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians. I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems. I am sorry that our own left wing elite, our media, and our own brainwashed (from elements of our society like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES) masses do not understand any of this. I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered. I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death. I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will receive 72 virgins in "paradise." I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children,the elderly and other noncombatant civilians are a legitimate targets. I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making. I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group. I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state. I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah. I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site". I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church - one of our Holy Sites. I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and 175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, the murders and beheadings of Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl, etc....etc! I am sorry Michael Moore is American; he could feed a medium sized village in Africa. America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do. We hang out our dirty laundry for all the world to see. We move on. That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology. Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, we were like - so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it was wrong. Sure, it dramatically hurts our cause - but until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated? Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujans. If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait. You have a better chance of finding those 72 virgins. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p090.ezboard.com/bxmenclan.showU ... ambit>XMEN Gambit</A>  <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://www.xmenclan.org/images/x.gif" BORDER=0> at: 6/23/04 7:53 pm

Posted: **Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:25 pm**

What really irritates me about these kind of things is that noone outside North America will ever read it. Pity. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\"> <img src="http://www.camerasupport.com/oV/mavsigr ...

Posted: **Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:27 am**

I'm sorry for U.S. of Arrogance towards the rest of the world. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> Sorry guys. But not everyone shares in this person's opinion. Myself included. The sad thing is, most folks see the prisoner abuse as being a " So What " scenerio... but they never think about what kind of target this has painted on the backs of our young service men and women. Our people can no longer be taken prisoner and expect to see their loved one's again. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("> Ah well... so much for the Moral High Ground. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">

Posted: **Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:23 am**

Def has the exact point that I was going to say. People seem to forget that the US signed on to the Geneva Convention because we didn't want our own troops to be abused if they were captured. The other sad thing is that the troops that took part in the abuse are regarded as what all Americans are like for a good portion of people throughout the world. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":(">

Posted: **Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:35 pm**

Both the original writer and you guys have valid points. But the fact is, while this stuff DID happen, and shouldn't have, much worse happened under Saddam and still happens under other regimes. These incidents caused scandal, shame, and yes, apologies to happen on the US side - but who else has done likewise? What other country's leader has publicly admitted and apologized for this sort of thing? I don't know for a fact that the US is the only one in modern times, but I do know that abuses of this nature have been happening for a long time, and still happen, and most governments deny it or cover it up or punish/kill people for even talking about it. As far as our country's image goes, indeed the abuses do tarnish it. But owning up to them has gained considerable respect in certain quarters, too. <img src="http://www.xmenclan.org/xmengambit.gif"/> XMEN member Card-carrying DTM OKL Fish-napper Though a program be but three lines long, someday it will have to be maintained.  The Tao of Programming

Posted: **Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:42 pm**

What'cha wanna bet that had there not been pictures leaked, that there would have been a bigtime denial? <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> Defiance.enD aka TxCowboy aka XMEN|TxCowboy crusader to the enD <img src="http://users.ev1.net/~txcowboy/images/T ...

Posted: **Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:24 pm**

And under certain regimes, the folks who took the pictures would be dead and their families would disappear, too.

Posted: **Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:23 pm**

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>"...but they never think about what kind of target this has painted on the backs of our young service men and women."<hr></blockquote> The target was already there long before the prisoner abuse scandal surfaced. Sorry, folks, but I'm gonna agree with much of what the original post had to say. Is the U.S. arrogant towards much of the rest of the world? Yep. It's a shortcoming of ours. Can anyone name a nation that does not have a list of shortcomings farther than the eye can see? Can anyone name a nation that has been a bigger benefactor to much of the rest of the world (even to countries that hate us) than the U.S. has been? What's the problem with extolling some of our virtues? No one denies that the U.S. is chock full of problems, but must we castigate ourselves at length everytime someone brings up something that is good about our nation? There's no shame in feeling a certain amount of pride over the things that we have accomplished - I'd like to think that this country has earned that right. We need to own the things that we do that are wrong; we need to make amends and rectify wrongs to the best of our ability. BUT, we do not need to make excuses or feel sorry for the good that this country has done. <table *****'Filter: Shadow(Color=#0000FF,Direction=225)'><tr><td><img src=http://www.xmenclan.org/avatars/porsche2.jpg align=left> XMENPorsche[DTM] Retired Leader - XMEN Retired Leader - DTM Eater of Chicken Fried Steak "You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take." - Wayne Gretzky "One of the hallmarks of a disciple of Jesus Christ is that he always leaves things better than he found it." "The great need in our day is to move from knowing about God to a knowledge of God." "Your problems are the window through which God will shake your life and allow you to see Him like never before." - Chip Ingram</td></tr></table>

Posted: **Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:49 pm**

Porsche: I firmly believe that no matter what the rest of the world thinks of us, that we should NEVER cross the lines that we crossed with the prisoners in Iraq. You let that kind of thing go on and the people that Americans do those things to become sub-human. You've already taken the first step in justifying the abuse because Americans are not thought of kindly. What REALLY needs to happen is for the US to stop doing things half-assed when it comes to warfare. No more Marines going to Iraq with tons of tanks, no-armored humvees, and inadequate body armor. The US has to not send their heavy armor home, then refresh the Marine battalions in Iraq with new ARMOR regiments that have no tanks. The US needs to not send troops off to war with "supposedly" armored vehicles whose armor barely stops BB's. If we fight in another war, then the US as a whole has to commit entirely to the fact that wars are not won with a few missiles and a "show of force". We need to use our precision weapons, but we need to blow the hell out of anything that stands against us. Let the Marines go unrestrained by BS Rules of Engagement. Let the Army and Marines go into a town to cleanse it. Don't give the enemy combatants their weapons back if they promise to "be nice and not shoot the Americans". Jeeze... it's like the US is afraid to use its full military might for some reason. And another thing, if we go in to remove a regime, then let's do just that. If we go in to restructure and rebuild a country, then we better have a better plan than the one we've had. Right now, I see the US like a lion that is surrounded by hyenas. The lion can literally kill any one of the hyenas, but the hyenas nip and bite at the lion. They keep doing this until the lion gets pissed off... only the lion has lost so much blood that it's too weak to fight back. The lion should have killed the first hyena that bit it, then moved on to the next and the next until the hyenas stayed the hell away. To really see the problem with the view that the prisoner abuse is justified, look at it through the eyes of a poor, uneducated muslim... -They believe that the US fully supports Israel and one way or another Israel is under the control of the US. -Muslims think that since Americans have put troops on the two most holy places in Islam on the entire planet, that the holy places are defiled. I've heard it described as if someone walked into your church, pooed on the walls, the altar, and the pews, then sat there making designs in the poo, then THAT is how the muslim world sees us in Iraq and Saudi Arabia. They only tolerate us in Saudi Arabia because the government there needs foreign workers to work the oil industry and the support structure there (mc'donald's, bk, pizza hut, etc.). Muslims tolerated us in Iraq because they knew Saddam was a nutjob just waiting to bring on Armageddon in the middle east. -Muslims also believe what they are told by their religious figures and those that proclaim to be religious figures. The Saudi government is having a hard time walking the line between appeasing its people, and the foreign workers there because of this. The schools are run by religious folks who for the most part are probably harmless. But there are a good number of people that preach that the US is evil, that all true muslims have to wage war against the US, and that they are right in saying these things because God told them to. -Many Muslims are in third world countries that lack education. The Muslims that the US has dealt with in setting up a government in Iraq, were Muslims that at one time or another lived in western countries, had western-style educations, and were familiar to the US (in terms of person and in terms of similar background). I very much doubt your average muslim woman thinks it's her right to have a say in the government (in terms of elections), nor do I think that an average muslim woman that has an education is treated well unless she already comes from a rich family. -That lack of a good education hurts us too, because the people are raised ignorant of things outside of their religious-state. These are just a few things that you have to consider when thinking about muslims in foreign countries. The prisoner abuse just fuels the hard-line folks that wanted to do us in anyways, while they also make those sitting on the fence think, "well, crap... here I thought the US was good, but they do that kind of thing? that pisses me off!". Even some that supported the US and its allies in Iraq are probably secretly going, WTF? over all of this.

Posted: **Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:48 pm**

OTOH, the reason that those countries are like that in the first place is because of their own goverments. Greedy, corrupt leaders who use their power to keep the masses ignorant and working for their own personal gain is not a failing limited to any particular form of government, but it's harder to get away with in a democracy than a monarchy or theocracy. Of course, when they finally catch you in a democracy you're more likely to keep your head. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

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Apology for prisoner abuse

Apology for prisoner abuse

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